Posts by jonathan dough

13

Blood Transfusion Revisited Like Never Before (with a gift to readers)

by arko_n9ne in

blood, blood, blood.

blah, blah, blah.

we'll see.. the resource material is from january 2000's awake!

jonathan dough

I'm looking for the Watchtower quote whereby parents who allow their children to be transfused are disfellowshipped and lose the prospect of eternal life. Anybody?

45

The WT Encourages JWs to learn about the early history of the organization! - 8/15/12 WT

by 00DAD in

ironically, in today's wt, jws are encouraged to study the early history of the "earthly organization".

like them [the sons of korah], do you have a desire to study and recount the history of the earthly part of jehovahs organization?

the more you learn about gods organization and how jehovah supports his people, the more real gods kingdom will be to you.

As chronicled in detail above, pre-1914 prophecies predicted that 1914 marked the end of Armageddon, the conclusion of the time of troubles, and that Christ's Second Coming and presence began in 1874; nothing could be clearer. However, in subsequent years the Watchtower Society has gone to great lengths covering up those false prophecies, in effect denying they ever taught them in the first place, writing: “The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence that Jesus' presence in heavenly kingdom power began in 1914. Events since that year testify to Jesus' presence. Jehovah's witnesses have consistently shown from the Scriptures that the year 1914 marked the beginning of this world's time of the end and that 'the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men' has drawn near.” Watchtower, January 15, 1993, 5, 9.

But that is simply not true. As established above, the Watchtower Society on many occasions taught the opposite; that 1874, not 1914, was the beginning of Armageddon; and that 1874 marked the beginning of Christ's presence and His Second Coming, not 1914. The extent of the Watchtower's cover-up is astounding, as seen by the following excerpts:

True to such calculations, 1914 did mark the end of those times and the birth of God's kingdom in heaven with Christ Jesus as king. Just think of it! Jehovah granted his people that knowledge nearly four decades before those times expired. Yearbook, 1975, 37.
Of all men used by God to prophesy, Jesus is outstanding. Based on what he said, along with the words of Daniel and John, Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of the “conclusion of the system of things.” Awake! January 22, 1973, 8.
As for the time of Christ's second presence, Daniel's prophecy is again the one that gives the chronology for it. (Dan 4:16) It was figured out as pointing to A.D. 1914, and the Watchtower called notice to the significance of 1914 in the year 1879. Watchtower, November 1, 1952, 658.
[I]n 1914 C.E. … the Most High God Jehovah installed the Messiah Jesus on the heavenly throne in order to reign and go subduing among his enemies. (Psalm 110:1-6; Acts 2:34-36; Hebrews 10:12, 13)
[A] prophecy providentially caused sincere 19th-century Bible students to be in expectation. By linking the “seven times” of Daniel 4:25 with “the times of the Gentiles,” they anticipated that Christ would receive Kingdom power in 1914. Watchtower, September 15, 1998, 15.
For over thirty years, before that date and for half a century since, Jehovah's witnesses have pointed to the year 1914 as the time for the end of the “appointed times of the nations” and the time in which Christ would begin his Kingdom rule. (Luke 21:24). Watchtower, February 15, 1966, 103.
Why, then, do the nations not realize and accept the approach of this climax of judgment? It is because they have not heeded the worldwide advertising of Christ's return and his second Presence. Since long before World War I Jehovah's witnesses pointed to 1914 as the time for this great event to occur. Watchtower, Jun 15, 1954, 370.
This was a new revelation of great importance to God's people who had been anxiously awaiting his second presence toward the end of the nineteenth century. Watchtower, July 15, 1965, 428.

But none of this is true when one compares these latter assertions with earlier pre-1914 prophecy. Their “understanding” of 1874 did not change until 1943 when that date, as being the year of the “Return of the Lord Jesus Christ” was done away with. God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached, 209. The Watchtower continued to falsely teach that Jesus' presence began in 1874 well into the 1920s, writing: “Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and the facts are indisputable.” Watch Tower, November 1, 1922, 333. They also wrote: “The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D.” Prophecy, 1929, 65, 66.

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/false-prophets/index.html

70

Please Help! Wife want PROOF of Watchtower Deception

by Indian Larry in

please post any examples of clear cut watchtower deception.

my wife does not believe that the watchtower would purposely decieve her.

i need clearcut examples of deception of by the wtbts.

jonathan dough

It doesn't get any clearer than this:

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/false-prophets/index.html

1874

The year 1874 was a pivotal cornerstone in Russell's theology that was taught during the late 19th century, and was not abandoned until the 1930s. Relying heavily on Adventist false prophecies, Russell also taught that 1874 marked the Second Advent, or the Second Coming of Christ, though invisible to the human eye. The Watchtower Society's founder, Russell, wrote that “[t]he second advent of our Lord in the end or harvest of the Gospel age, occurr[ed] in the fall of 1874 .... October 1874 [was] the date of our Lord's return …. [T]he time-prophecies thus point to and harmonize with 1874 as the date of our Lord's second presence, assuring us of the fact with mathematical precision ….” The Time of the Harvest (1911 ed.), 125, 127, 129.

A careful study of times and seasons taught in Scripture convinced us that the Lord was due to be present in 1874, and other time teachings of the Word showed that in the spring of 1875 the restitution of all things was due to commence. Zion's Watch Tower, August 1883, 1.

Furthermore, Russell also taught that October 1874 marked the beginning of the battle of Armageddon, which would end in October of 1914: “The date of the close of that 'battle' is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October 1874.” Zion's Watch Tower, January 15, 1892, 23. Needless to say, none of this proved true.

Did Russell or the Watchtower Society bother to correct this false teaching within a reasonable period of time in subsequent years? No. The year 1874, the alleged Second Coming of Christ, served as core Watchtower doctrine up until the 1930s. They wrote: “The second coming of the Lord … began in 1874 …. Prophecy cannot be understood until it has been fulfilled or is in the course of fulfillment.” Creation 1927, 2,175,000 ed., 289. “The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D.” Prophecy, 1929, 1,589,000 ed., 65. Not until 1932 did the Watchtower Society acknowledge this false prophecy, shifting the Second Coming from 1874 to 1914 when it conceded its manifest error: “The prophecy of the Bible, fully supported by the physical facts in fulfillment thereof, shows that the second coming of Christ dates from the fall of the year 1914.” What is Truth? (1932), 48.

1914

Of all the dates, the times, and the seasons which the Watchtower Society holds dear, none is more important today than 1914 when, they teach incorrectly, Christ allegedly returned invisibly to earth at his second coming. However, before 1914 the Society taught many other things which have proven to be false. Before 1914 they taught that 1914 marked the end of all earthly government institutions, and the fall and utter destruction of all false religions; that year was to be the end of Armageddon, the end of the Gentile Times, and the beginning of Christ’s millennial 1,000-year-reign over Jehovah's Witnesses in a paradise on earth. Little known to the Jehovah's Witnesses, pyramidology - measurements taken from Egypt's Pyramid of Giza - was used in part to calculate 1914, a pagan occultish practice condemned in the Bible. The Society wrote, in The Way to Paradise, at 171, that “The Bible and 'The Bible in Stone' [the Pyramid of Giza] give the date 1914: for the beginning of the great change.”

With Armageddon having allegedly begun in 1874, Russell was adamant that it would end in 1914, writing with respect to that date, “We see no reason for changing the figures – nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” Zion's Watch Tower, July 15, 1894, 226. “... The battle of the great day of God Almighty … [t]he date of the close of that 'battle' is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. Zion's Watchtower, January 15, 1892, 23.

The beginning of the earthly phase of the Kingdom in the end of A.D. 1914 will, we understand, consist wholly of the resurrected holy ones of olden time – from John the Baptizer back to Abel - “Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the holy prophets. Studies in the Scriptures, Series IV - The Day of Vengeance, 625.
And yet “Jerusalem must be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled; hence, trodden down until A.D. 1914, when the day of wrath will be passed, and the resurrection and return of the “whole house of Israel” due. Three Worlds and the Harvest of This World (1877) 166.

“That the deliverance of the saints [the 144,000] must take place some time before 1914 is manifest, since the deliverance of fleshly Israel, as we shall see, is appointed to take place at that time.” Studies in the Scriptures, Series III – Thy Kingdom Come (1908 ed.).

1914 was to be the year that 40 years of “harvest” work was to be completed – the completion of the preaching work and the in-gathering of additional Watchtower believers, but as we know, the Watchtower preaching work continues: “.... [T]he close of 1874 marked the beginning, as the close of 1914 will mark the end of this 40 years of harvest ....” Studies in the Scriptures, Series III – Thy Kingdom Come, 149 – 150. Furthermore, all religions, other than the Watchtower Society, were regarded then, as now, as false and under the influence of Satan, and are referred to as Babylon the Great. And Babylon, it was prophesied, was to be completely destroyed – all religions, except their own, were to be utterly vanquished in 1914.

The seventh trumpet sounds from August 1840 until “the time of trouble,” or day of wrath is ended. Hence, it doubtless ends with the Times of the Gentiles, and this forty years of conquest; and therefore, sounds until A.D. 1914, at the end of which, Babylon the great will have fallen, and the “dragon be bound: that is, the nations will be subdued, and “the prince of this world cast out.” Three Worlds and The Harvest of This World (1877), 143.
A.D. 33, to A.D. 70 was 36 ½ years; and so from A.D. 1878 to the end of A.D. 1914 is 36 ½ years. And, with the end of A.D. 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown in prophecy. Studies in Scriptures, Series III – Thy Kingdom Come, (1891) 153.
October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon, “as a great millstone cast into the sea, utterly destroyed as a system. Watch Tower, June 15, 1911, 190.

These prophecies proved false as well. To add insult to injury, before 1914 the Watchtower Society also prophesied that all of mankind's governments would be overturned in 1914, and God's kingdom on earth would “assume control.” Studies in Scriptures, Series II – The Time is at Hand, (1889) 77, 78.

True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved. In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A.D. 1914. Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's Word. Studies in the Scriptures, Series II – The Time is at Hand (1889) 99, 101.

The year 1914 was looked upon differently after it came and went because each and every prophecy proclaimed with respect to that date proved false. Subsequently, new dates and new predictions, and shockingly radical revisions were made by the Watchtower Society of their previous false prophecies once the extent of their egregious errors came to light. Today the Watchtower teaches that 1914 marked the beginning of the end, not the end of the end, as taught up to 1914. Obviously the change in predictions and the significance of associated events is profound. The Jehovah's Witnesses are taught today, and are required to believe, that the Second Coming of Christ, and his “invisible” presence on this earth, happened in 1914.

Changing the significance of 1914 and disavowing the false prophecies and occurrences associated with the years 1874 – 1914 inclusive, whether implicitly or explicitly, is an admission by the Watchtower Society that they are false prophets. The false nature of earlier predictions is compounded by later attempts to deny they made certain of those pre-1914 false prophecies and statements of “facts” in the first place. In other words, the Watchtower Society is guilty of trying to rewrite their own history; of denying what they taught, believed and prophesied, notwithstanding overwhelming documented evidence to the contrary.

To illustrate, as pointed out by Paul Grundy, author of jwfacts.com – most likely the finest overall website dedicated in great detail to the Jehovah's Witnesses religion, and to whom this writer is profoundly indebted – many of the Society's false prophetic predictions were contained within Studies in the Scriptures, which they continued to use after 1914. Subsequent editions of this series of writings were change to reflect an altogether different past; a retroactive alteration aimed at changing the “false” to the “truth.”

As Paul Grundy writes, “The 1908 edition of Studies in the Scriptures, Series III – Thy Kingdom Come stated on p. 228 that the resurrection would occur before 1914. The 1915edition changed this to state that the resurrection was to occur soon after 1914.” The 1908 edition provides, “That the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest ….” While the 1915 edition provides, “That the deliverance of the saints must take place very soon after 1914 is manifest.” This is no trivial change, but a fundamental misappropriation of the truth, a disturbing alteration of facts which served to conceal the reality of the false prophecies the Watchtower Society actually taught.

Even more bothersome for an organization which claims it alone was granted biblical truth is their subsequent handling of the crucial year 1914 with respect to Christ's return. Grundy writes, “In 1914, the Watchtower was teaching that Jesus' presence began in 1874 and his heavenly rulership began in 1878.”

Our belief that the Kingdom began to be set up, or brought into power, in April, 1878, be it observed, rests on exactly the same foundation as our belief that the Lord became present in Oct. 1874, and that the harvest began at that time. Thy Kingdom Come, p. 205.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

jonathan dough

Because the earth shall be destroyed, the resurrected, and the Great Crowd, cannot be ruled over by the 144,000 from heaven[Home]

The Greek word basileuo “to reign,” does not only mean to “rule over a people.” It is often used as metaphor, such as to “reign in life” (Rom. 5:17) where ‘shall reign in life’ indicates the activity of life in fellowship with Christ in His sovereign power, reaching its fullness hereafter; 1 Cor. 4:8…” (Vine’s, 52). One can also reign over sin (Rom. 6:12). Grace can also reign (Rom. 5:21). With this in mind it does not automatically or logically follow that there must be someone over whom the 144,000 reign on earth in the same way that contemporary governments rule over a people in today’s world.

As a matter of fact, even though the Jehovah's Witnesses claim that the Bible does not tell us what the 144,000 will do after the thousand year reign is over, Revelation 22:3,4 informs us that God's servants will worship him and "shall reign forever and ever." But reign over who? They claim that at that time no one will stand between God and man, most certainly not Jesus (Insight, 170); the kingdom will have been handed over, death will be no more and man will be forever perfect.

But if that is true the word "reign" cannot mean to rule over humans on earth, especially on an earth destined for fire and complete destruction which is made clear by 2 Peter 3:10,11: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a mighty roar and the elements will be dissolved by fire and the earth and everything in it will be found out. ... everything is to be dissolved this way," (NAB; "Total destruction is assumed (11)," notes 3,10). "...the heavens will be destroyed by burning, and the elements will melt with intense heat" (2 Peter 3:12). "But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men" (2 Peter 3:7). Peter's warning reemphasized Zephaniah's warning, where the ancient prophet transmitted the Almighty's words, "I will utterly consume all things from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah. I will consume man and beast; I will consume the birds of the heavens, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumbling blocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the face of the ground, saith Jehovah" (Zephaniah 1:2,3)

Complete destruction of man on earth is intended. " Their blood will be poured out like dust and their entrails like dung. 18 Neither their silver nor their gold will be able to save them on the day of the LORD’s wrath.” In the fire of his jealousy the whole earth will be consumed, for he will make a sudden end of all who live on the earth (Zephaniah 1:17, 18). The Jehovah's Witnesses theory that they alone, their great crowd, will survive Armageddon and be ruled from heaven by the 144,000 is simply not in accord with Scripture.

Granted, the Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe the earth will be destroyed and base this teaching in large part on Psalm 37:29 where the psalmist wrote, "The just will possess the land (earth) and live in it forever." However, the earth "wears out like a garment (Isa. 51:6), so the word "forever" is hyperbole, and nothing here indicates that there won't be a hiatus, or break, in the earth's habitation. Psalm 37:29 does not say man will inherit the earth continuously without interruption, and Revelation 21:10,27 suggests that reconstituted, glorified man, without the warts, will come back down out of heaven sometime in the future: "He took me in spirit to a great high mountain and showed me the holy city Jerusalem coming down out of heaven from God." "Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb's book of life."

Actually, the earth has experienced significant disruptions evidenced by the annihilation of the dinosaurs and great flood of Noah's day. Remember, we are dealing with geologic time, and cycling through another ice age that would wipe off the post-apocalyptic mess left in the wake of Armageddon is entirely within reason; it is more reasonable than handing the Great Crowd brooms and haz-mat suits and ordering them to restore the earth into a paradise.

More to the point is Peter's comparison of the earth's pending fiery destruction to the great flood which is a real, not metaphorical, example of earth's fate as detailed at 2 Peter 3:5-13: "They deliberately ignore the fact that the heavens existed of old and earth was formed out of water and through water by the word of God; through these the world that then existed was destroyed, deluged with water. The present heavens and earth have been reserved by the same word of fire kept for the day of judgment and of destruction of the godless." Jesus likewise made it known that ultimate destruction will be modeled after the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, where Luke 17:29 makes it abundantly clear God destroyed them all. That man's governments are changed in the process goes without saying. Remember, "...he was seated on the throne and said, "Behold, I am making all things new. (Rev. 21:5).

To "reign," then, must mean to reign in life or over sin, and old-world government models such as king David's rule over God's people do not necessarily apply to a new world, a new earth and a new creation. As a point of interest, this is the meaning ascribed to the concept of "reign" by the Catholic church.

Like other numerical values in this book, the thousand years are not to be taken literally; they symbolize the long period of time between the chaining up of Satan (a symbol for Christ's resurrection victory over death and the forces of evil) and the end of the world. During this time God's people share in the glorious reign of God that is present to them by virtue of their baptismal victory over death and sin; cf Rom 6, 1-8; Jn 5, 24-25; 16, 33; 1 Jn 3,14; Eph 2,1. (NAB, note Rev. 20:1-6)

Finally, if the Great Crowd is in heaven and not on earth as the Jehovah's Witnesses claim, the 144,000 cannot rule over them as earthly subjects.

http://www.manonthemoon.byethost24.com/144000/index.html

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

jonathan dough

Is the Great Crowd standing on earth in an approved condition as the Watchtower incorrectly teaches? Absolutely not.

The Great Crowd of Revelation 7:9 standing before God’s throne in heaven and before the Lamb is not standing on earth merely in an ‘approved condition’ but is in heaven contrary to the Jehovah's Witnesses' teachings. [Home]

First, Revelation 7:9 provides: “After these things I saw, and, look, a great crowd which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb ….” As with the Great Crowd, Revelation 14:1 also has the 144,000 standing in heaven with the Lamb, Jesus Christ. “And I saw, and, look! The Lamb standing upon Mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand.”

The Greek verb histemi - to stand or standing - is used for both groups of individuals, but whereas the 144,000 are regarded as physically (as spiritual creatures) standing in the direct presence of the Lamb in heaven, the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe the Great Crowd on the other hand are actually on earth and stand only metaphorically before God; they are standing in an approved condition, or position, in the sight of God only. The Jehovah's Witnesses are aware of their conundrum.

This poses the question: if the “great crowd” are persons who gain salvation and remain on earth, how could they be said to be ‘standing before God’s throne and before the Lamb’? (Re 7:9) The position of ‘standing’ is sometimes used in the Bible to indicate the holding of a favored or approved position in the eyes of one in whose presence the individual or group stands. (Ps 1:5; 5:5; Pr 22:29, AT; Lu 1:19). In fact, in the previous chapter of Revelation, “the kings of the earth and the top-ranking ones and the military commanders and the rich and the strong ones and every slave and every free person” are depicted as seeking to hide themselves “from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?” Re 6:15-17; compare Lu 21:36). It thus appears that the “great crowd” is formed of those persons who have been preserved during that time of wrath and who have been able to “stand” as approved by God and the Lamb. (Insight, 997).

However, it is noteworthy that the definition of histemi (standing or to stand) does not contain the notion of a ‘favored or approved position’ or condition according to the entry for histemi or a derivative paristemi, in Vine’s Complete Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (Vine’s Greek Dictionary). And as to its application at Revelation 6:15-17, which they cite, those depicted as hiding themselves are about to be destroyed, so they can hardly be said to be standing or seeking to stand in an "approved condition" before God. Other translations render the word “withstand.” (NAB).

Secondly, the Great Crowd cannot be standing in an approved condition on earth because Revelation 9:1-6 details the account of the Fifth Trumpet where locusts, given the power of scorpions, are instructed to torment and harm all those on earth who do not have the “seal of God on their foreheads.”

1 And the fifth angel blew his trumpet. And I saw a star that had fallen from heaven to the earth, and the key of the pit of the abyss was given him. 2 And he opened the pit of the abyss, and smoke ascended out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace, and the sun was darkened, also the air, by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke locusts came forth upon the earth; and authority was given them, the same authority as the scorpions of the earth have. 4 And they were told to harm no vegetation of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And it was granted the [locusts], not to kill them, but that these should be tormented five months, and the torment upon them was as torment by a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 And in those days the men will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will desire to die but death keeps fleeing from them. (Rev. 9:1-6 NWT).

According to the Jehovah’s Witnesses only the 144,000 have the seal of God on their foreheads, not the Great Crowd or anyone else.

2 And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying: “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel:…. (Rev. 7:2-4 NWT)

Because the torment on the Great Crowd and others is to be so great that they will seek death it is difficult to imagine that the Great Crowd is standing on earth in an approved condition before God.

Third, one of the twenty-four elders in heaven upon seeing the Great Crowd comments “where did they come from?” (Rev. 7:13), which suggests they arrived from someplace else, namely earth.

Fourth, the Jehovah’s Witnesses deny the Great Crowd’s presence in heaven because “Revelation does not say of them, as it does of the 144,000 that they are bought from the earth” to be with Christ on heavenly Mount Zion. Rev 14:1-3.” (Reasoning, 167) But the Jehovah’s Witnesses are reading Scripture too narrowly and assume that the Great Crowd and 144,000 are separate. If, as mentioned above, a strong argument can be made that the 144,000 and the Great Crowd are the same - a qualitative identification of that large multitude - then the Great Crowd has indeed been bought from the earth because they are the 144,000 and represent all Christian people, which is the view taken by the Roman Catholic Church (Revelation 14:4, notes NAB).

Furthermore, it is not the 144,000 alone who were ransomed or bought by Jesus’ blood. The Jehovah’s Witnesses distinguish the Great Crowd from the 144,000 by the fact that the Great Crowd were of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. But according to Revelation 5:9 this includes the 144,000 who also are of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. (Reasoning, 168).

9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Rev. 5:9 NWT).

Lastly, Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.

15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).

The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.

“Jehovah is in his temple,
Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.”
http://144000.110mb.com/144000/index.html

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

jonathan dough

What the WT has stated in the past (inconsistent or changed) has no bearing on the present doctrine about the great crowd

Actually, it bears directly on WT doctrine. He is fully aware of present Great Crowd teaching. The past is used to illustrate the fact that JWs do not have the truth, never have had the truth, and peddle falsehoods. It impeaches their credibility. More than any other religion on earth, JWs are inconsistent in their teachings. They are false prophets. Their false teachings are demon inspired. And the proof is overwhelming. It staggers the imagination that a reasonable adult can believe in what they peddle as the truth.

The degree to which they constantly change doctrine, and then cover up their teachings, is proof that they do not have God's favor.

http://www.soul.host-ed.me/false-prophets/index.html

http://144000.110mb.com/index.html

Jwfacts has buried the Watchtower with their own false facts. He has exposed them for what they are.

278

Jwfacts-- More Lies But This Time About The Great Crowd

by Recovery in

jwfacts has an article that explains why the great crowd must be in heaven.

i am also aware that many of these are the same arguments that stemmed from the 'awakenings at bethel' so my statements are not simply attacks of jwfact's character (since these arguments are probably not original) but rather his copy and paste of what others have said instead of verifying it as 'fact' for himself.. so here are jwfacts arguments:.

1. he shows that russell and rutherford (at some point) believed that the great crowd were in heaven.. 2. each term that describes the great crowd of revelation 7 is else used to described the anointed by the wt.

jonathan dough

Where is the Great Crowd standing?

It is not the 144,000 alone who were ransomed or bought by Jesus’ blood. The Jehovah’s Witnesses distinguish the Great Crowd from the 144,000 by the fact that the Great Crowd were of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. But according to Revelation 5:9 this includes the 144,000 who also are of all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues. (Reasoning, 168).

9 And they sing a new song, saying: “You are worthy to take the scroll and open its seals, because you were slaughtered and with your blood you bought persons for God out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, 10 and you made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God, and they are to rule as kings over the earth.” (Rev. 5:9 NWT).

Revelation 7:15 makes it abundantly clear that the Great Crowd, their robes also washed by the blood of Christ, is in heaven because that is where God’s temple and his throne are; the Great Crowd is seen in His temple where they worship Him day and night.

15 That is why they are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. (Rev. 7:15 NWT).

The psalmist at Psalm 11:4 tells us where God’s temple is and where his throne is, and by virtue of Revelation 7:15 we know where the Great Crowd stands worshiping the Almighty, namely, in heaven.

“Jehovah is in his temple,
Jehovah - in the heavens is his throne.”

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html

79

Watchtower falsification of its history

by jwfacts in

i received an email with the following information that is worth sharing.. the 2011 yearbook goes to great lengths to elevate the truthfulness of watchtower information in even minor details, and criticise information from other sources.

so it is telling that the 2010 "jehovah's witnesses - faith in action, part 1" has omitted an important element of their history when re-enacting the 1922 cedar point convention.. under the heading "tracing all things with accuracy" the 2011 yearbook states: .

"jesus said that the faithful slave would be discreet in giving the domestics "their food at the proper time.

jonathan dough

1874

The year 1874 was a pivotal cornerstone in Russell's theology that was taught during the late 19th century, and was not abandoned until the 1930s. Relying heavily on Adventist false prophecies, Russell also taught that 1874 marked the Second Advent, or the Second Coming of Christ, though invisible to the human eye. The Watchtower Society's founder, Russell, wrote that “[t]he second advent of our Lord in the end or harvest of the Gospel age, occurr[ed] in the fall of 1874 .... October 1874 [was] the date of our Lord's return …. [T]he time-prophecies thus point to and harmonize with 1874 as the date of our Lord's second presence, assuring us of the fact with mathematical precision ….” The Time of the Harvest (1911 ed.), 125, 127, 129.

A careful study of times and seasons taught in Scripture convinced us that the Lord was due to be present in 1874, and other time teachings of the Word showed that in the spring of 1875 the restitution of all things was due to commence. Zion's Watch Tower, August 1883, 1.

Furthermore, Russell also taught that October 1874 marked the beginning of the battle of Armageddon, which would end in October of 1914: “The date of the close of that 'battle' is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. It is already in progress, its beginning dating from October 1874.” Zion's Watch Tower, January 15, 1892, 23. Needless to say, none of this proved true.

Did Russell or the Watchtower Society bother to correct this false teaching within a reasonable period of time in subsequent years? No. The year 1874, the alleged Second Coming of Christ, served as core Watchtower doctrine up until the 1930s. They wrote: “The second coming of the Lord … began in 1874 …. Prophecy cannot be understood until it has been fulfilled or is in the course of fulfillment.” Creation 1927, 2,175,000 ed., 289. “The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D.” Prophecy, 1929, 1,589,000 ed., 65. Not until 1932 did the Watchtower Society acknowledge this false prophecy, shifting the Second Coming from 1874 to 1914 when it conceded its manifest error: “The prophecy of the Bible, fully supported by the physical facts in fulfillment thereof, shows that the second coming of Christ dates from the fall of the year 1914.” What is Truth? (1932), 48.

1914

Of all the dates, the times, and the seasons which the Watchtower Society holds dear, none is more important today than 1914 when, they teach incorrectly, Christ allegedly returned invisibly to earth at his second coming. However, before 1914 the Society taught many other things which have proven to be false. Before 1914 they taught that 1914 marked the end of all earthly government institutions, and the fall and utter destruction of all false religions; that year was to be the end of Armageddon, the end of the Gentile Times, and the beginning of Christ’s millennial 1,000-year-reign over Jehovah's Witnesses in a paradise on earth. Little known to the Jehovah's Witnesses, pyramidology - measurements taken from Egypt's Pyramid of Giza - was used in part to calculate 1914, a pagan occultish practice condemned in the Bible. The Society wrote, in The Way to Paradise, at 171, that “The Bible and 'The Bible in Stone' [the Pyramid of Giza] give the date 1914: for the beginning of the great change.”

With Armageddon having allegedly begun in 1874, Russell was adamant that it would end in 1914, writing with respect to that date, “We see no reason for changing the figures – nor could we change them if we would. They are, we believe God's dates, not ours. But bear in mind that the end of 1914 is not the date for the beginning, but for the end of the time of trouble.” Zion's Watch Tower, July 15, 1894, 226. “... The battle of the great day of God Almighty … [t]he date of the close of that 'battle' is definitely marked in Scripture as October 1914. Zion's Watchtower, January 15, 1892, 23.

The beginning of the earthly phase of the Kingdom in the end of A.D. 1914 will, we understand, consist wholly of the resurrected holy ones of olden time – from John the Baptizer back to Abel - “Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the holy prophets. Studies in the Scriptures, Series IV - The Day of Vengeance, 625.
And yet “Jerusalem must be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled; hence, trodden down until A.D. 1914, when the day of wrath will be passed, and the resurrection and return of the “whole house of Israel” due. Three Worlds and the Harvest of This World (1877) 166.

“That the deliverance of the saints [the 144,000] must take place some time before 1914 is manifest, since the deliverance of fleshly Israel, as we shall see, is appointed to take place at that time.” Studies in the Scriptures, Series III – Thy Kingdom Come (1908 ed.).

1914 was to be the year that 40 years of “harvest” work was to be completed – the completion of the preaching work and the in-gathering of additional Watchtower believers, but as we know, the Watchtower preaching work continues: “.... [T]he close of 1874 marked the beginning, as the close of 1914 will mark the end of this 40 years of harvest ....” Studies in the Scriptures, Series III – Thy Kingdom Come, 149 – 150. Furthermore, all religions, other than the Watchtower Society, were regarded then, as now, as false and under the influence of Satan, and are referred to as Babylon the Great. And Babylon, it was prophesied, was to be completely destroyed – all religions, except their own, were to be utterly vanquished in 1914.

The seventh trumpet sounds from August 1840 until “the time of trouble,” or day of wrath is ended. Hence, it doubtless ends with the Times of the Gentiles, and this forty years of conquest; and therefore, sounds until A.D. 1914, at the end of which, Babylon the great will have fallen, and the “dragon be bound: that is, the nations will be subdued, and “the prince of this world cast out.” Three Worlds and The Harvest of This World (1877), 143.
A.D. 33, to A.D. 70 was 36 ½ years; and so from A.D. 1878 to the end of A.D. 1914 is 36 ½ years. And, with the end of A.D. 1914, what God calls Babylon, and what men call Christendom, will have passed away, as already shown in prophecy. Studies in Scriptures, Series III – Thy Kingdom Come, (1891) 153.
October, 1914, will witness the full end of Babylon, “as a great millstone cast into the sea, utterly destroyed as a system. Watch Tower, June 15, 1911, 190.

These prophecies proved false as well. To add insult to injury, before 1914 the Watchtower Society also prophesied that all of mankind's governments would be overturned in 1914, and God's kingdom on earth would “assume control.” Studies in Scriptures, Series II – The Time is at Hand, (1889) 77, 78.

True, it is expecting great things to claim, as we do, that within the coming twenty-six years all present governments will be overthrown and dissolved. In view of this strong Bible evidence concerning the times of the Gentiles, we consider it an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A.D. 1914. Be not surprised, then, when in subsequent chapters we present proofs that the setting up of the Kingdom of God is already begun, that it is pointed out in prophecy as due to begin the exercise of power in A.D. 1914 with the complete overthrow of earth's present rulership, is already commenced. The gathering of the armies is plainly visible from the standpoint of God's Word. Studies in the Scriptures, Series II – The Time is at Hand (1889) 99, 101.

The year 1914 was looked upon differently after it came and went because each and every prophecy proclaimed with respect to that date proved false. Subsequently, new dates and new predictions, and shockingly radical revisions were made by the Watchtower Society of their previous false prophecies once the extent of their egregious errors came to light. Today the Watchtower teaches that 1914 marked the beginning of the end, not the end of the end, as taught up to 1914. Obviously the change in predictions and the significance of associated events is profound. The Jehovah's Witnesses are taught today, and are required to believe, that the Second Coming of Christ, and his “invisible” presence on this earth, happened in 1914.

Changing the significance of 1914 and disavowing the false prophecies and occurrences associated with the years 1874 – 1914 inclusive, whether implicitly or explicitly, is an admission by the Watchtower Society that they are false prophets. The false nature of earlier predictions is compounded by later attempts to deny they made certain of those pre-1914 false prophecies and statements of “facts” in the first place. In other words, the Watchtower Society is guilty of trying to rewrite their own history; of denying what they taught, believed and prophesied, notwithstanding overwhelming documented evidence to the contrary.

To illustrate, as pointed out by Paul Grundy, author of jwfacts.com – most likely the finest overall website dedicated in great detail to the Jehovah's Witnesses religion, and to whom this writer is profoundly indebted – many of the Society's false prophetic predictions were contained within Studies in the Scriptures, which they continued to use after 1914. Subsequent editions of this series of writings were change to reflect an altogether different past; a retroactive alteration aimed at changing the “false” to the “truth.”

As Paul Grundy writes, “The 1908 edition of Studies in the Scriptures, Series III – Thy Kingdom Come stated on p. 228 that the resurrection would occur before 1914. The 1915edition changed this to state that the resurrection was to occur soon after 1914.” The 1908 edition provides, “That the deliverance of the saints must take place some time before 1914 is manifest ….” While the 1915 edition provides, “That the deliverance of the saints must take place very soon after 1914 is manifest.” This is no trivial change, but a fundamental misappropriation of the truth, a disturbing alteration of facts which served to conceal the reality of the false prophecies the Watchtower Society actually taught.

Even more bothersome for an organization which claims it alone was granted biblical truth is their subsequent handling of the crucial year 1914 with respect to Christ's return. Grundy writes, “In 1914, the Watchtower was teaching that Jesus' presence began in 1874 and his heavenly rulership began in 1878.”

Our belief that the Kingdom began to be set up, or brought into power, in April, 1878, be it observed, rests on exactly the same foundation as our belief that the Lord became present in Oct. 1874, and that the harvest began at that time. Thy Kingdom Come, p. 205.
As chronicled in detail above, pre-1914 prophecies predicted that 1914 marked the end of Armageddon, the conclusion of the time of troubles, and that Christ's Second Coming and presence began in 1874; nothing could be clearer. However, in subsequent years the Watchtower Society has gone to great lengths covering up those false prophecies, in effect denying they ever taught them in the first place, writing: “The Watchtower has consistently presented evidence that Jesus' presence in heavenly kingdom power began in 1914. Events since that year testify to Jesus' presence. Jehovah's witnesses have consistently shown from the Scriptures that the year 1914 marked the beginning of this world's time of the end and that 'the day of judgment and of destruction of the ungodly men' has drawn near.” Watchtower, January 15, 1993, 5, 9.
But that is simply not true. As established above, the Watchtower Society on many occasions taught the opposite; that 1874, not 1914, was the beginning of Armageddon; and that 1874 marked the beginning of Christ's presence and His Second Coming, not 1914. The extent of the Watchtower's cover-up is astounding, as seen by the following excerpts:
True to such calculations, 1914 did mark the end of those times and the birth of God's kingdom in heaven with Christ Jesus as king. Just think of it! Jehovah granted his people that knowledge nearly four decades before those times expired. Yearbook, 1975, 37.
Of all men used by God to prophesy, Jesus is outstanding. Based on what he said, along with the words of Daniel and John, Jehovah's witnesses pointed to the year 1914, decades in advance, as marking the start of the “conclusion of the system of things.” Awake! January 22, 1973, 8.
As for the time of Christ's second presence, Daniel's prophecy is again the one that gives the chronology for it. (Dan 4:16) It was figured out as pointing to A.D. 1914, and the Watchtower called notice to the significance of 1914 in the year 1879. Watchtower, November 1, 1952, 658.
[I]n 1914 C.E. … the Most High God Jehovah installed the Messiah Jesus on the heavenly throne in order to reign and go subduing among his enemies. (Psalm 110:1-6; Acts 2:34-36; Hebrews 10:12, 13)
[A] prophecy providentially caused sincere 19th-century Bible students to be in expectation. By linking the “seven times” of Daniel 4:25 with “the times of the Gentiles,” they anticipated that Christ would receive Kingdom power in 1914. Watchtower, September 15, 1998, 15.
For over thirty years, before that date and for half a century since, Jehovah's witnesses have pointed to the year 1914 as the time for the end of the “appointed times of the nations” and the time in which Christ would begin his Kingdom rule. (Luke 21:24). Watchtower, February 15, 1966, 103.
Why, then, do the nations not realize and accept the approach of this climax of judgment? It is because they have not heeded the worldwide advertising of Christ's return and his second Presence. Since long before World War I Jehovah's witnesses pointed to 1914 as the time for this great event to occur. Watchtower, Jun 15, 1954, 370.
This was a new revelation of great importance to God's people who had been anxiously awaiting his second presence toward the end of the nineteenth century. Watchtower, July 15, 1965, 428.
But none of this is true when one compares these latter assertions with earlier pre-1914 prophecy. Their “understanding” of 1874 did not change until 1943 when that date, as being the year of the “Return of the Lord Jesus Christ” was done away with. God's Kingdom of a Thousand Years has Approached, 209. The Watchtower continued to falsely teach that Jesus' presence began in 1874 well into the 1920s, writing: “Bible prophecy shows that the Lord was due to appear for the second time in the year 1874. Fulfilled prophecy is otherwise designated the physical facts; and the facts are indisputable.” Watch Tower, November 1, 1922, 333. They also wrote: “The Scriptural proof is that the second presence of the Lord Jesus Christ began in 1874 A.D.” Prophecy, 1929, 65, 66.
http://www.soul.host-ed.me/false-prophets/index.html

23

Where has the the society changed the bible to reflect their teachings?

by loosie in

i am having a discussion with a jw who has contacted me on facebook.

we are discussing the changed the wt society made to hte bible.

in short he says he has a hebrew friend and that friend says the nwt is correct and no changes have been made.

jonathan dough

In short he says he has a hebrew friend and that friend says the NWT is correct and no changes have been made.

How many times have I heard about this "friend" who knows Hebrew. They've run this line out for the last thirty years, but pin them down. I know English, but does that make me an expert in anything written in English? Sheesh.

There are so many changes it staggers the imagination. Some web sites list the changes. Check freeminds.org

39

For Recovery: A discussion about the Great Crowd and the Other Sheep

by Londo111 in

recovery,.

as requested, a discussion on the great crowd and the identity of the other sheep.. .

first question: where are the great crowd rendering sacred service day and night?.

jonathan dough

Question 2: Who are the other sheep?

They are the gentiles, the people of the nations.

http://144000.110mb.com/144000/i-2.html#III